forums : Jungle Scene

Ableton Live

I don't know enough about this program to justify an educated negative opinion, but there's something about any computer program that beatmatches for you that makes me question the integrity behind using such a program. Is this really dj-ing? Is it cheating?

I saw a dj the other night that looked like she was having fun messing with EQ's, but took her headphones off while 2 tracks were playing. This girl plays out a lot in SD, so I question whether there are redeeming aspects in terms of necessary skill in using this program, or whether people just don't care or know that much about the media to make or break a dj's career.

What do you think?

Re: Ableton Live

Re: Ableton Live

It's cheating. It also puts the songs in order by key too.

Where's the fun in that?

Cool for mixes (kinda). Not so cool live. Very boring to watch actually.

Re: Ableton Live

its good when your not mixing tunes...

if youre up there on a free for all with samples and what not..then its tight..

but just to put tunes together, i think its a waste of time for the listener

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Fresh did a live Ableton set at Nocturnal, basicly just laying down beats and putting different samples over the top, kind've cool.

I thought the fact that he was using a scratch sample to make it sound like he was scratching was kind've funny.

Wouldn't really consider it djing though

Re: Ableton Live

Hey LD, my animated gif is way cooler



I know some may view this as similar to Kelly D's thread, but I was curious if there were different opinions regarding this program than other digital media. I thought that was an interesting thread and it raised a lot of good points and made me think about a lot of stuff I really related to.

Re: Ableton Live

hahaha, so great!



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According to djdaemia ...

Hey LD, my animated gif is way cooler



I know some may view this as similar to Kelly D's thread, but I was curious if there were different opinions regarding this program than other digital media. I thought that was an interesting thread and it raised a lot of good points and made me think about a lot of stuff I really related to.
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Re: Ableton Live

It seems like some people really hype up "LIVE" sets sometimes, but if this is what was referred to as a "live" set, would you be upset as a music consumer? Could people call this a "live set?"How do you know if it's live or pre-programmed?

I should also probably mention that this was not a DNB event, so I don't know if people feel differently about it in house than DNB...I imagine they probably do...

Thanks for the replies, your feedback is appreciated

Re: Ableton Live

House music (from what i know) is a lot less about the dj and how the dj performs then it is about actually dancing and having a good time...

for some reason dnb has this level that djs are required to be at in order to be legit..

the songs sound the same no matter what medium used (for the most part)

people just want to dance..



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According to djdaemia ...

I should also probably mention that this was not a DNB event, so I don't know if people feel differently about it in house than DNB...I imagine they probably do...

Thanks for the replies, your feedback is appreciated
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Re: Ableton Live

Damn, I feel like such a pompous beard-stroking, analog-loving jaded junglist, lol j/k

In all seriousness, I agree that we take pride in drum and bass being a more intelligent and intricate form of electronic music and standards for skill are higher than in other genres. It's probably what made me a bit put off by it in the first place (although now that I think about it, a house head standing next to me watching her had the same mixed feelings that I did).

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According to thedope1theycallunit ...

House music (from what i know) is a lot less about the dj and how the dj performs then it is about actually dancing and having a good time...

for some reason dnb has this level that djs are required to be at in order to be legit..

the songs sound the same no matter what medium used (for the most part)

people just want to dance..



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According to djdaemia ...

I should also probably mention that this was not a DNB event, so I don't know if people feel differently about it in house than DNB...I imagine they probably do...

Thanks for the replies, your feedback is appreciated
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Re: Ableton Live

Not the biggest fan of using software live. That being said, I saw a guy do a glitch-hop set on a mini-synth, one turntable, and a laptop runing Live for samples and live looping from the synth. Thought that was good use of the programs capabilities.

Re: Ableton Live

i've been trying to come up with a way to perform live that is more than just fading in one track after another. it's difficult since producing the tracks is a long, meticulous process that i do not want to recreate on the spot as it would not sound as good as the finished tracks.
i am sticking to turntables until i figure a method that suites my style well and preferably something to keep me busy during the middle of the tracks so there's no standing around time. i am definitely open to ideas.

Re: Ableton Live

I think its so fun to have a program like Ableton or Traktor in the car on my macbook output to the car stereo on long road trips having me and my homies mix in the car live and recording it. Its really really fun to mix live that way!

we did that Saturday night, it was so dope! Our next mix is going to be called DMTransit - OC to The IE on tha 91

[ djdmt - 3 Mar 2008 18:30 ]

Re: Ableton Live

cool if used correctly, sounds like the dj in your example is just a fake.
boo.

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ableton is as interesting as you wanna make it.

ive seen boring sets and i have seen very cool ones.

so far glitch mob and bassnectar take the cake from what ive seen. tempo changes live editing, crowd interaction.. dj swagger with new school tricks...

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I can't imagine just using Abelton to mix tunes together. It seems like that would be a misuse of the programs capabilities. With the small amount of experience I've had with it, to me it would seem boring to just fade in/out tracks and eq them or add some cool effects every once in a while. I might as well just dj with records or use Serato.
I do see the benefits to the dj though. The benefit of using your digital music is it is muuuuch cheaper than vinyl, and for producers you no longer have to cut dubplates or even burn cd's. Plus you can just bring your laptop to a show instead of your records.

What I think it should be used for is the live performance arena.

I've thought about how I might do it, cause I'm getting ready to buy a macbook pro in the next couple months. I think what I would use it for is to play backing tracks (drums, samples, etc...) then using a midi keyboard play basslines or leads and control aspects of a song (fading in/out different tracks, cueing different parts, bringing in/out effects, changing tempo...etc). This is as far as I've wrapped my head around it. I definitely want to do more, but more thought and reading and practicing with a copy of Abelton is needed for sure!

Either way I'm excited for the possibilities that this program has for bringing a bit of the production process and a lot of live performance capabilities to the electronic music stage. There's nothing like playing live music in front of a crowd. It's something I've missed for a couple years, so it will be nice to try and work out some live stuff again

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Ableton Live for Drum&Bass = not so fun, but that's another story and almost off-topic.

Ableton Live for 4/4 music = there is no alternative for me. In complete honesty, it has restored my interest and joy for being one who has control of the music. This is the evolution of DJing, not cheating. I do love that word, though. It brings sinister smiles to my face every time I use Ableton for gigs, because I know someone out in the audience is thinking, "Wow, he uses Ableton Live. What a cheater." How exactly does one "cheat" at DJing without throwing a CD on and letting it play all the way through?

I've been playing records for just about 10 years now. Ableton Live has expanded my thoughts and creative boundaries for gigs and studio mixes.

Yes, the program does beatmatch for you but you have to first "warp" the track so it can actually be played. Some tracks are easy as pie for this process while others are just downright annoying. You're basically putting in the work of beatmatching before you play live so that your focus can go elsewhere on stage. Being able to match beats is such a rudimentary part of DJing that I've gladly traded for what Ableton Live has to offer.

What it comes down to is simple. When you get up on stage or behind any type of "decks," you are DJing. You are in control of that crowd and can sink or swim. How you choose to play the music is entirely up to you. I've seen people completely suck playing records and I've seen dudes absolutely kill it using who-knows-what software on the computer. The art is not necessarily in how you do it, but what you do with it.

And for the record, Ableton has no clue what key your track is in. That's another software program altogether that I fully condone!

Mixed In Key
http://mixedinkey.com

Tell you what. Come to Respect next week and watch Kingpin and I "cheat" on the patio. We'll be playing our favorite 4/4 beats that you can either be lissin' or dissin' on. Just no tomato throwing, please...I like my shoes to stay clean.

- Jeff aka Sucio
L402Audio

Re: Ableton Live

I'm sure I could fill up a few pages about this, but, I'll just keep it short.

Basically, "live" does as little, or as much as you want. If you just wanna mix two tunes together you can!

If you wanna get creative with loops, and trigger samples and play an instrument along with it, you can do that too!

Basically, the software is just a vehicle. If you see a DJ using it, and it's boring, it's not the software's fault!

Re: Ableton Live

This post.


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According to kingpin ...

Basically, "live" does as little, or as much as you want.

Basically, the software is just a vehicle. If you see a DJ using it, and it's boring, it's not the software's fault!
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Re: Ableton Live

i agree 100% with the dnb vs 4/4 comment from Jeff. ive used live a lot with house music and even with some dubstep and if used correctly it can add an element to your sound...

one thing also to think about, in the house music scene, the 'majority' of the people are not djs or die hard music gurus. they go because they want to hear music that makes them dance.

ps... Go see Sucio and Kingpin next thursday...

Re: Ableton Live

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drum and bass being a more intelligent and intricate form of electronic music and standards for skill are higher than in other genres.

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Are you sure about this?? I had this perception for years and upon delving into different genres it's really not all that different..
I am reluctantly starting to realise that (most) DnB is fairly easy to play and line up verses some of the other stuff about..
Something I notice is DnB's consistency with being the same bpm.
When was the last time you had two up to date tracks playing together with one @ -8 and one @ +8? Most tunes these days it's barely a nudge in either direction. So, would that be considered cheating?
Ableton is a great program, I don't condone people doing live sets on it with this type of music, but if a hipster DJ wants to use it to play an indie set at a cafe somewhere thats great. There are plenty of other uses for it as well!!

Re: Ableton Live

No, I'm just biased

No doubt different skills are required when mixing different genres of electronic music and even sub-genres of DNB ("oh crap she mentioned DNB sub-genres!" ). For example, mixing liquid requires greater attention to mixing in key as compared to harder DNB because the melodies can conflict and sound awful together (not that mixing hard DNB is effortless, just different). Same with a lot of house music, too. But I do feel that DNB is a diverse and intricate genre of music, with all due respect to other genres. I can't say for certain that we hold ourselves to a higher standard in dj-ing than other genres, but I do feel a difference in our values and standards for integrity when it comes to dj-ing. Maybe we have more dj's in our community than in other genres?

As far as the +/- 8 point that you made, I don't think it's cheating if you have to touch the pitch at all. Beat matching is beat matching. Pre-pitched CD's are a different story. Boo to pre-pitched CD's.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback regarding this program. In summary it sounds like there are cool things that can be done with it, but it could also be a tool a dj can cheat with. It's just another tool. Like I said before, I didn't want to be a hater if I didn't know what the hell I was talking about or if I had no idea what a dj is actually doing. At first I thought she was using Serrato with CD-J's since I didn't see any control records being used with her laptop, but when I looked more closely, I saw a pattern of loops on a screen, a dj that looked like she was having a good time (though not wearing headphones some of the time), and someone that drew a decent crowd and maintains a busy dj schedule. I doubt the same would fly in DNB, but who knows, lol. Maybe the dj to party-goer ratio is higher in DNB than other genres and people would notice and talk smack more quickly. Perhaps she actually produced some of those drops herself and I'm an asshole for judging the media she uses to convey her love for music to her audience. I think I'll ask her myself.

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According to step_correct ...

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drum and bass being a more intelligent and intricate form of electronic music and standards for skill are higher than in other genres.

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Are you sure about this?? I had this perception for years and upon delving into different genres it's really not all that different..
I am reluctantly starting to realise that (most) DnB is fairly easy to play and line up verses some of the other stuff about..
Something I notice is DnB's consistency with being the same bpm.
When was the last time you had two up to date tracks playing together with one @ -8 and one @ +8? Most tunes these days it's barely a nudge in either direction. So, would that be considered cheating?
Ableton is a great program, I don't condone people doing live sets on it with this type of music, but if a hipster DJ wants to use it to play an indie set at a cafe somewhere thats great. There are plenty of other uses for it as well!!
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Re: Ableton Live

I use this program strictly for production (which works great by the way, It has a nice sampler built in I'll often use too, but I mainly use it to control my outboard gear via midi)

As far as using it to DJ it's not my style. I wouldn't consider it DJ'n, though T-Power uses it and it's no less exiting than watching someone like Diesleboy mix which is a nice audio experience too. (the only DJ's i'd say are entertaining to watch are the ones that are scratching, cutting, and doing all sorts of tricks etc, like Craze, R.A.W., CRS?, APX-1, Danny the Wildchild, etc.)... (and I can't forget dj's like Jo-S, who put alot of energy into there sets too which make for a great show)...

When used to perform live it's nice when the artist has some nice fancy controlers, etc. and they are turning knobs tweaking the sound and all that... Like some of my Droid Behavior homies do..

*the program is very versatile and has many many uses, but to aswer your question Damia I wouldn't consider it cheat'n if you used it but I also wouldn't consider it "DJ'N" either (to me that is done on 2 turntables)*



[ jahwy - 4 Mar 2008 09:46 ]

Re: Ableton Live

Hey Ableton.....

Re: Ableton Live

the idea that dnb is more intelligent and technical than other forms of music is an elitist, narrow minded view and i find it ironic that such an "advanced" music scene is so ready to discount new advances in technology.

these elitest viewpoints are enforced even further when u think of the ideals maintained by the "ragga junglists" or artists like paradox who believe in the integrity of not utilizing new technologies and doing things the "old-school way".

so we're better when we're "old-school" and we're better when we're "more technically adept". regardless, we're not better than anyone.

what it come down to is this... if you are an artist in this, i.e. dj or producer, pick the medium that works best for you. if you're feeling it and people identify w/ it then cool. if they don't, they don't. wen i first started i never really focused on people hearing me my main concern was to learn learn learn. i was soo interested in the mechanics of it all that playing live was the least of my concerns.

the main problem i have w/ new advancements in technology is that individuals who have NO ARTISTIC VISION can easilly churn out a reece tune, get signed and start behaving like they're a rockstar. like they're due for something to be handed to them. to the ignorant, best believe that artists like the prodigy and daft punk most likely have pre-arranged sequences firing off in their live performances. but we know their motives are genuine and their artistic integrity is true.

the act of djing / spinning records is just an aesthetic to the lifestyle u lead and the dedication to this music is where the authenticity lies...not the tools you use. so if your motivations are genuine and you don't put what other people feel before you're own artistic integrity, i.e. selling out, then you're doing the right thing.


[ jos - 4 Mar 2008 12:36 ]
[ jos - 4 Mar 2008 12:36 ]

Re: Ableton Live

As far as acts like Glitch Mob using it to match their beats and change tempos, thats cool. But they're using it as a part of a complete live set up.

If your just djing, even if you're throwing in loops and samples, it looks like the DJ is just standing there letting the computer do all the work, with maybe a couple of point and click movements here and there, and the occasional turning of the nobs.

I just can't imagine letting something do all the work for me. I have way to much fun challenging myself to see how fast I can beat match a tune. And I love the rush I get when I can throw a tune in quick enough to land a sick double drop.

Maybe I'm a bit biased cause I never actually messed with the program, but I think it essentially takes away from the showmanship. I mean even Serrato allows you to at least see the DJ mix, even though it looks like he's occasionally checking his email

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Ive always thought creativity fueled music, not the tools.

Your only limited by yourself.

Re: Ableton Live

well, I was gonna post a bunch more, but .... that pretty much sums it up.

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According to kellyd ...

Ive always thought creativity fueled music, not the tools.

Your only limited by yourself.
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Re: Ableton Live

Don't let's forget it works pretty good as a recording/mastering program..

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it seems like its the ONLINE dnb community that is OVERLY concerned with the tools of the trade (funny for a supposedly cutting edge music genre). most of your normal party goers just wanna hear dope ass tracks and dont give a s**t what the dj is using. just do something cool and interesting if that tool allows you to do so like making your own personal edits, vips and loops.

kind of an old and tiring discussion and kind of sad that dnb is so hung up on this while all the other music genres are whizzing by...

check out Deadmau5 on Ableton for pure awesomeness

Re: Ableton Live

"check out Deadmau5 on Ableton for pure awesomeness"

In fact, check him THIS SAT with James Zabelia (also using Ableton + CDj's) at the Vanguard. James is like the house scene's version of Qbert =)

Seriously fun music right there.

Re: Ableton Live

double true.

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According to jayvon ...

most of your normal party goers just wanna hear dope ass tracks and dont give a s**t what the dj is using.

kind of an old and tiring discussion and kind of sad that dnb is so hung up on this while all the other music genres are whizzing by...

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Re: Ableton Live

I was not aware that ragga junglists were anti-technology and I think it's kind of ironic to hear that presented somewhat as a stereotype in that context.

Judging by the overall responses, I would say that there were a lot of mixed reviews, but overall, almost everyone had something positive to say about it, so to say that our "advanced" scene is unaccepting of new technology also sounds like a stereotype. Boy, some of you guys are going to s**t your pants when you find out I'm getting Serrato, haha. I used to be a major hater and talked s**t for days about it, lol. Don't worry, I'll still buy vinyl =D I just can't afford to update my collection as much and as quickly as I want and I need a medium to play digital tunes.

I think most people naturally stand behind the music they love and think it's the s**t! It's the genuine passion for the music that fuels such "elitist" and "narrow-minded" views. I'm sure the elitist attitude exists across all genres. Some people feel that funky soulful house rhythm is superior while others get bored with it. I may have been a little too loose with my wording, I forgot that junglists are so quick to tear each other up on the web Lol at that stereotype, but comments like this confirm that we can/have/will engage in intense intellectual conversations and debates regarding this music, and I think it's important to note that THIS IS PART OF THE REASON WHY I LOVE THIS PARTICULAR GENRE SO MUCH! I don't really hang out on any other online forums that are specific to another particular genre like junglescene, so I don't really know if they have such long-winded intelligent conversations, but I embrace the stimulation I get from the people I meet through this music, and you, Jo, are one of those people that reinforces my "elitist" attitude through providing stimulating opinions and food for thought. Rather than calling it elitist, perhaps patriotic might be a better way of putting it.

The reason why I started this thread is because I always have my eye on female talent across a variety of genres. Being a female dj has it's challenges. The challenge is that people are often challenging your level of skill as a female in a male-dominated industry. It would be embarrassing for me as a supporter of female talent to support someone who may genuinely like being up on stage, but who sucks as a dj and uses a crutch to display her stage presence. It would be a violation of my integrity as a supporter of the art and a supporter of real female talent. Stage presence should never override skill in my opinion.

When I first saw this girl spinning, I thought about seeing if she was interested in becoming a member of SoCal Selectress. I'm especially trying to recruit members that spin other genres besides DNB (as I'm working on turning this into a talent agency eventually). She was rocking it. People came out and were having fun (which to some is all that really matters). Before I even realized she was using Ableton, I was talking to a guy who was rocking out and he said,"Man, that girl told me that she was a horrible dj, but she kicks ass!" And then her headphones came off and I paid closer attention to what was going on. It kinda felt like finding out Milli Vanilli lip-synched. But not knowing enough about Ableton made me feel I didn't have the right to say whether what she was doing something that earned my respect as an artist or not. At the time, I didn't get a good feeling about it. I mean, who knows if she was even the one who did all the programming on it in the first place? Maybe someone did it for her and she just hit play and was checking her e-mail. Who knows. Anyways...selling out is somewhat a subjective term because people have different standards and levels of integrity which may be somewhat influenced by the specific culture within genres.

Thanks for the interesting feedback, everyone. Good food for thought...


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According to jos ...

the idea that dnb is more intelligent and technical than other forms of music is an elitist, narrow minded view and i find it ironic that such an "advanced" music scene is so ready to discount new advances in technology.

these elitest viewpoints are enforced even further when u think of the ideals maintained by the "ragga junglists" or artists like paradox who believe in the integrity of not utilizing new technologies and doing things the "old-school way".

so we're better when we're "old-school" and we're better when we're "more technically adept". regardless, we're not better than anyone.

what it come down to is this... if you are an artist in this, i.e. dj or producer, pick the medium that works best for you. if you're feeling it and people identify w/ it then cool. if they don't, they don't. wen i first started i never really focused on people hearing me my main concern was to learn learn learn. i was soo interested in the mechanics of it all that playing live was the least of my concerns.

the main problem i have w/ new advancements in technology is that individuals who have NO ARTISTIC VISION can easilly churn out a reece tune, get signed and start behaving like they're a rockstar. like they're due for something to be handed to them. to the ignorant, best believe that artists like the prodigy and daft punk most likely have pre-arranged sequences firing off in their live performances. but we know their motives are genuine and their artistic integrity is true.

the act of djing / spinning records is just an aesthetic to the lifestyle u lead and the dedication to this music is where the authenticity lies...not the tools you use. so if your motivations are genuine and you don't put what other people feel before you're own artistic integrity, i.e. selling out, then you're doing the right thing.


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Re: Ableton Live

I love ragga jungle as well as other styles... but for the record:



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I was not aware that ragga junglists were anti-technology and I think it's kind of ironic to hear that presented somewhat as a stereotype in that context.

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[ jahwy - 5 Mar 2008 08:56 ]

Re: Ableton Live

I want to see someone use a dance dance revolution pad , a wii controller and duck hunt gun as a midi controller for LIVE . THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL I VALIDATE THEIR PREFORMANCE AS BEING "LIVE" . Beatmatching is for the birds who needs serato when you have a live show like that .

Seriously I think sometimes it's better to not know what the magic behind the show is . It's same policy I have when it comes to art . Just be totally niave and enjoy it like it's your first time .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1ZGIrNf71Q












P.S. Does anyone have a link to the footage of Aphex Twin "preforming LIVE" with his dancing bear crew . Now that man knows how to put on a LIVE show .



[ andrade - 5 Mar 2008 11:32 ]
[ andrade - 5 Mar 2008 11:31 ]
[ andrade - 5 Mar 2008 11:30 ]

Re: Ableton Live

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According to andrade ...

Seriously I think sometimes it's better to not know what the magic behind the show is . It's same policy I have when it comes to art . Just be totally niave and enjoy it like it's your first time .

***********************************

Thats what im talking about.











P.S. Does anyone have a link to the footage of Aphex Twin "preforming LIVE" with his dancing bear crew . Now that man knows how to put on a LIVE show .



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According to andrade ...

I want to see someone use a dance dance revolution pad , a wii controller and duck hunt gun as a midi controller for LIVE . THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL I VALIDATE THEIR PREFORMANCE AS BEING "LIVE" .

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There are hardcore/Glitch guys that actually do use stuff like that to perform.

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I heart Glitch & circut bending . I just want to see a hardcore DnB producer take off there shoes and brock out !!!

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According to step_correct ...

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According to andrade ...

I want to see someone use a dance dance revolution pad , a wii controller and duck hunt gun as a midi controller for LIVE . THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL I VALIDATE THEIR PREFORMANCE AS BEING "LIVE" .

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There are hardcore/Glitch guys that actually do use stuff like that to perform.
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Re: Ableton Live

Just so we're all clear ...

THIS is cheating =)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=m01g4XnC_qU

Re: Ableton Live

That guys got some cooooooool moves.

lol @ 1:14

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According to kingpin ...

Just so we're all clear ...

THIS is cheating =)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=m01g4XnC_qU

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Re: Ableton Live

Nob turning has never looked so good

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According to kellyd ...

That guys got some cooooooool moves.

lol @ 1:14

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According to kingpin ...

Just so we're all clear ...

THIS is cheating =)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=m01g4XnC_qU

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Re: Ableton Live

im stealin' those moves Josh.

hahahaaa

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According to joshmayhem ...

Nob turning has never looked so good

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According to kellyd ...

That guys got some cooooooool moves.

lol @ 1:14

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According to kingpin ...

Just so we're all clear ...

THIS is cheating =)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=m01g4XnC_qU

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Re: Ableton Live

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According to kingpin ...

Just so we're all clear ...

THIS is cheating =)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=m01g4XnC_qU

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LMAO!

Is that guy serious? Are you sure that's not the guy doing the lighting or something? He looks like he's doing the same thing in other youtube videos as well. That cracks me up.

Re: Ableton Live

hehe, did you check the comments?

He put on a CD that Pete Tong did for MIXMAG and just ROCKED out to that =)

He didn't even bother removing the "This is Pete Tong, and you're listening to the March MixMag Mix" tagline crap they add in.

There's video of that, but I can't find it.

COMEDY

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LMAO!

Is that guy serious? Are you sure that's not the guy doing the lighting or something? He looks like he's doing the same thing in other youtube videos as well. That cracks me up.
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