forums : Jungle Scene

Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

Just wanted to make a serious thread and see what your guys thoughts are on this matter?

How is the economic turmoil we are facing in this country effecting our scene and what can we do as a whole to help?

Please no bashing on peoples opinions everyone has a right to what they feel serious input only please.

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

Im goin to say its not just effecting our scene but its effecting any sort of leisure or entertainment lately. Compared to say 3 years ago, I dont go out to dinner/bars/clubs as half as much as I used to. Maybe if my gas budget wasnt 100 dollars more a month as it was then I would have a little extra here and there for stuff.

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

^^^ Ya thats totally my situation to the fall out of the mortgage industry pretty much made me unemployed for 4 months. God it gets old staying home all the time after partying 3 times a week for dnb. Even promoters I mean who can afford gas to run around town handing out flyers anymore? Have people noticed a decrease in turnouts at their shows couse of these thiings.

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

a lot of scenes i think in the USA are more localized now due to high fuel costs. i think relatively speaking this summer has been a bit slower then last summer at least nationally. Last year i was out of town performing almost 3-4 times a month in the summer. it has slowed this summer and #1 reasons promoters tell me is airplane/gas prices. however though i think that now the 'off season' will pick up (like the fall/winter) cause it is cheaper. that is my personal experience. i think promoters now can't take a "risk" on an unknown commodity unless they cut them a major deal or happen to be in town etc..

let me add though that i think LA has been pretty much unaffected in numbers of people attending shows. i think we are steadily growing...some months slower than others but comparatively speaking LA is growing and i think it also helps that our "dnb heads" are not solely into drum n bass cause our events are more 'come as u are' friendly and those who are deep in the scene have escapes and don't get 'burnt out' as quickly as others.
Also it is good we have 'hardcore' heads but we also just have people who don't know (or care) about songs etc. and like the music/scene on a 'i just want to party' attitude. also (though some of us scorn at it) having raves that attract kids help steadily give us a stream of new people who as they grow older may move from raves to clubs, but it is a good stream of new people. pretty much LA is in a good position on all fronts.


[ mc.xyz - 7 Aug 2008 10:28 ]
[ mc.xyz - 7 Aug 2008 10:28 ]
[ mc.xyz - 7 Aug 2008 10:25 ]

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

^^^^ Ya and with the fall out of some of the biggest weeklies (Function, Deep, Muse) for examples flight share possibilities have decrease tremendously. Making it alot less affordable for promoters to book international talent. Which in turn creates less demand which in turn creates higher prices from artist agents. Its simple economics why they are raising prices. But dam its tuff now a days to bring the calibre of talent and amount of talent we saw last year.

Ya I noticed that to chris LA seems to be quite unaffected. Dam your amount of population up there Thats good though its awesome to see clubs like respect even through the tuff times giving people a place to have a great time.

[ dublg - 7 Aug 2008 10:31 ]

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

i personally have been spending less money in general. trying to save to fund more important things.

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

it is definitely a factor

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

we all deffinatly r feelin the effects of the economy rite now. i feel that if we all come together in a time like this and start organizing within the crews. having multiple parties on the same day within a certain area splits the scene and will effect the outcome of each. im not saying that this happens all the time, but it does happen.
if we start communicating on when we all are planning parties and keep other crews involved we can start seein larger turnouts and more profits to keep the scene goin strong. thats my 2 cents, any other thoughts or additions to what i have said.

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

backyard bbqs' for the win!!!!!

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

^^^^ Ya seriously we have just been partying at home as of late listening to radio shows mostly. Doing alot of surfing cause its free lol

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

we have been setting of the decks right next to the pool under the shade of the bamboo bbq hut next to the spa. spinning all the best reggae 45's to ragga jungle and now a days some dubstep and classic rock. drinking the best beers and having the grill master Muad Dib grilln up the best hamburger, steaks, shrimp, bacon wrapped everything. Jane Doe with the 7 layer bean dip... and then the beers....OOHH the BEERS!!! taking a nice drink of a finally crafted beer and then cannon ball into the pool!!!!1. relax in the hot spa afterwards.

next session this sunday.

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

Bacon wrapped everything OMG yum....... DROOLS

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

In a nutshell: I don't buy vinyl anymore, I don't go out during the week anymore, and I barely drink.

I'd say it has seriously affected my involvement in the scene and I know I'm not the only one feeling the pinch...

P.S. - Student loans are not fun!

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

Honestly I'll still go out to a show if there is some headliner I want to see and if I am off on that day. I usually work on Sats and will only take off if it is really worth it. Majority of the headliners play on that day(I saw Tech Itch and Dylan at Play because it was on a Friday). It really comes down to the lineup though. I am a liquid head and when a good headliner is in town I am there(i.e. I went to Marcus Intalex @ Bluebeat). Any time Ltj Bukem, High Contrast, Calibre, Redeyes, Craggz and Parallel Forces, Marky, London E, etc. are here I will be there. In the meantime, I get to save a whole bunch of change.

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

it's fukked everyone up for sure.

head-counts keep going down, and guest lists keep going up.

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

THATS THE PROBLEM.

the scene in the small cities or counties is not very big. we all know each other. we all feel privaledged to get into a club free cuz we know the dude who is throwing it...

imagine if there was no guestlist.

the ideal situation (and how it should be) all your friends instead of bitching that they have to pay $5 to get in, should be glad to donate to your party so that the actual person making the effort to put on the show succeeds.

if that person doesnt have $5 or whatever than he probably doesnt have money for beer. so you loose on that end.

if he is just there "for the music" then you kick that hippy out and tell him to get a job and help support the music he loves so much. dirrty hippy.

**********
According to trench ...
and guest lists keep going up.
**********

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

and if you dont come out because you have to pay the cover and you dont want to then your an elitist!! go back to russia!!

wait, i dont know where im going with these posts.

/im bored at work and want to stir it up. go!

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

hey! eff you! my son's russian!
lol!
s'all good,he's a crazy little dictator,always demanding cookies and ish!

[ prowl - 7 Aug 2008 15:48 ]

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

We understand that s**t is tight right now.
Respect has been $5.00 for this very reason.. it's super tight but we do what is necessary!!!


Thursday August 7.2008
Respect
Presents


MYSTICAL INFLUENCE (12:30AM-2AM)
Syrous, Vinyl Syndicate•TORONTO

As one of Canada's most respected DJ's, and a veteran in North American Drum & Bass, Mystical Influence has been involved in this music since the beginning. Heavily responsible for putting Toronto at the forefront of Drum and Bass as a DJ, promoter and former CEO of Vinyl Syndicate, arguably the biggest label to come out of Canada, a set from Mystical Influence is definitely not one to miss. Armed with a bag of fresh cuts and promise of good party music, Los Angeles should brace itself for some dubplate pressure.

plus

SCOOBA (11:15PM-12:30AM)
Respect

-BACK 2 BACK-


AMC (11:15PM-12:30AM)
Almost Famous

•••••••••••••••••••••••••


WORLD RENOWNED (10PM-11:15PM)
Almost Famous

Special Guest MC

DECO COMPREHENSION
Almost Famous

Resident MC

XYZ

•••••••••••••••••

18+
$5 ALL NIGHT

Located at
the ECHOPLEX
1154 Glendale Blvd. Los Angeles, CA.90026

http://www.attheecho.com
http://www.myspace.com/theechoplex


10P-2A
2 Full Service Bars for 21+ W/ID
Outdoor Smoking Area
State of the Art Sound & Lighting
-Giant Video Screens

More Info:
310.281.9595 / 323.969.5993

http://www.respectdrumandbass.com
http://www.myspace.com/respectclub



*Spread the Love*

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

I always say - Support you scene, don't be a scenester.

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

$5 dollar parties = Impulse (Time to go Party) example: Respect tonight.

$10 dollar events = Who is playing, Where am I driving to if I want to go. (Due to gas staying locally)

$20 and up = You better be bringing Noisia, Calibre, Alix Perez, and the P.O.T.D.

BTW.

Nocturnal Wonderland? That line up is ill. That is 3 of my favorite 5 as of right now.

Thank you Bluebeat for bringing out Marcus Intalex.

And Respect closing out my top 5 producers bringing in Optical next week.

All in all, this has been a good summer.

Glad Pure Filth is back... My chest hurts from that system.

=]

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

I have ALWAYS respected RESPECT for always trying to make it affordable for the masses. It shows you guys are out to make our scene succeed. Your not just in it to make money.

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

The dollar struck a five-month high point against the euro on Friday on fading prospects of an interest rate rise by the European Central Bank.

A strong dollar makes goods priced in the US unit more expensive for holders of weaker currencies.
On Monday, prices slumped under 120 dollars a barrel in New York and London for the first time in three months, as a tropical storm looked set to miss energy installations in the Gulf of Mexico.

The barrel dropped to a six week low to 114$...
Oil prices are getting more and more pressure from dollar strength and it doesn't seem reversible for now...........

Keep your head up son and ride it out.....
s**ts gettin better real quick.....

JAH!

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

i love how speculation determines the price of oil. not supply and demand. there is plenty of oil everywhere. hell, they just discovered more oil in south america then there is in the middle east. So of course, prices on oil raised because of fear america was going to start importing from the south.

i heard they raised the price of oil on news that Lindsay Lohan was going to merry her long time gf.

s**ts ghey. i hate economics.

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

the economy has been a s**tty domino effect across the nation. currently it hasnt effected me personally but it has made me look at how we spend our money.
we will definitely feel the pinch when our son starts to attend a private preschool in the fall. *ouch*

as for supporting the scene, my only issue is driving. i know im gonna drink so i refuse to drive. i dont mind paying a door fee and i dont mind buying a couple of drinks from the bar. but theres no way in hell im risking a dui!

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

ya living 40-50 miles away from everything means I need to arrange a ride or plan to stay sober.... as much as I wish I could I can't simply just take a cab... and the trains/busses stop running at like 11-12.

**********
According to prowl ...

as for supporting the scene, my only issue is driving. i know im gonna drink so i refuse to drive. i dont mind paying a door fee and i dont mind buying a couple of drinks from the bar. but theres no way in hell im risking a dui!
**********

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

everyones BROKE right now, it seems to me at least.

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

Most people in our demo (18-34) are living beyond their means to begin with. The debt we carry is staggering and much more than any generation. The middle class is dissolving due to the subprime fallout, banks failing, and jobs in blue collar industries drying up. Gas prices in my opinion really have no bearing; it is the fear it creates that really has people holding on to their dollar. Gas prices up means people are fearful of other things rising. Food prices have been increasing faster than gas. Corn, milk? They are ridic'. A Gallon of milk is as expensive as gas. $4.50 in some stores.

So now there is no disposible income to throw around. And in my opinion; some nights are not worth going out to. Even to support the scene. There is not any new music that really moves me right now in Drum and Bass. No originality, nothing that punches me in the gut like it used to.

Plus for me, having one night with 4 DJ's playing the same genre is outdated. Most other nights have differnet genres up there, different rooms, etc. Alot of places are teaming up for major events instead on weekly gigs. When I have gone out; it has been to electro/house nights that rotate the sound. I feel horrible to say it; but I have a good time.

And finally. I am over the guestlist posse. If you had just cut the guestlist out; most of you would be making money more money back at the door.

I am a grumpy old lady now. Baaahhh humbug

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

It depends what you mean. What should we as a scene do about what? About the bad economy, or about maintaining the scene in spite of it?

I've seen some really great ideas for preserving the scene in this post. Definitely having events that are either cheaper or closer to home helps. Either are great for everyone involved in these events, as lower prices influence people's decisions as far as purchasing entertainment goes.

$6 beers, for example, don't help though - not to knock any venues, but I really wonder what kind of profit margin they need to make on something that costs less than $2 per in an average 6-pack.

I like the idea of DIY events too, although naturally there are space, noise & disturbance ordnance, liquor sale, and other issues to consider when throwing an event in a residential zone. In so many ways, you just can't beat the venue experience. Nonetheless, I'm happy to hear that people are being creative in these tough times, or being generous (e.g. with Respect's $5 cover - props, guys).

In a larger sense, using our scene to contribute to economic repair would entail some political involvement and a better understanding of the economy and the factors that affect it. You can't get really solid information about the latter from mainstream news, because the real situation isn't being that accurately presented by national news services. External news services paint a picture of our economy continuously hurtling towards a collapse - which, by the way, the post-Depression New Deal under FDR was supposed to ensure never happened again - and that seems to be supported by folks like former Fed chair Alan Greenspan suggesting to companies like Iran that they should de-link their currency from our economy (that's an official act of treason, by the way) and current chair Bernanke dodging issues about the value of the dollar and its ability to buy goods and services.

The fundamental problem is that we have no control over the value of our money, because it's in the hands of a private bank (the Federal Reserve is not actually a federal bank). As a scene, it would be awesome if we could all band together to put control of our monetary system back in the hands of our country; poor monetary policy is at the heart of our awful situation, and the key element is that the Department of Treasury, which used to be responsible for printing all of our money (and thereby controlling the value - i.e. the amount of money in circulation is inversely proportional to the value of the dollar), is the Fed's bitch.

Currently, our system goes like this:

1) Congress passes a budget, which it hands to the Treasury.
2) Treasury asks the Fed, "Will you loan us this much money?"
3) Fed says, "Yes. Give us that amount in Treasury notes, and we'll tack on x amount of interest."

The problem is that there's never enough money in our economy to pay back the principal (the amount represented by the collateral in Treasury bills given to the Fed) plus the interest. The Fed manipulates the interest rate, which is a measure of the value of our money - the basis of which is absolutely nothing. By doing so, they affect prices in this country.

I probably have something of a reputation for extremism and being a kook on here, but all in all I would call this "financial slavery". I think the best thing we could do here is get away from the Fed and figure out a new system of trade that is either controlled centrally by our own country or not centrally controlled at all. Of course, in order to get politicians talking about this, it would take a truly massive effort - because any financial measures short of a financial regime change ARE just band-aids.

Who on here is willing to be a part of initiating this change?

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

Rising gas prices and fewer tips due to people not eating out = less frequent trip to LA for me. Been to maybe 4 events all summer.

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

$100.00? a month on gas??? try going from $160.00 maybe 5 months ago to $260.00 now that hurts!

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

That's true... export does go down when the dollar rises, but at the same time it makes bringing UK dnb DJs out here cheaper! Was just reading an article about how the pound fell against the dollar this week..

"The currency's (pound) 7.6 percent decline since July 31 is its largest since February 1993, when Britain was emerging from two years of recession."


**********
According to jahlovesme ...

A strong dollar makes goods priced in the US unit more expensive for holders of weaker currencies.
**********

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

As far as the economy I gotta say that unfortunately it's a wideworld problem right now.

In Europe, gas prices are also outrageous if not worse then here and their housing market is tumbling as well.

Was just reading an article about Japan's economy contracting
... "Japan's economy shrank 2.4% in the second quarter, after expanding a revised 3.2% in the first, according to preliminary figures released by the Cabinet Office Wednesday. "

And unfortunately it's going to get worse before it gets better. In my opinion this all stirred from the subprime mortgage problem. But right now Prime loans are the latest class of mortgages to suffer a spike in failure rates. So as prime loans are added to the mix, the resulting foreclosures could haunt the housing market for a long time and in turn the economy. When you add in the gas/oil price issue... no bueno.

In all honesty though, I don't feel the effects of a bad economy just yet. I'm still going out to parties and spending loot at the bar etc.. Being Romanian (or not American I shoul say) I've learned the value of saving money and saved anough when the economy was good to get me through the bad times.

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

I know! Isn't that so insane?

From what I hear there is so much speculation now in the securities markets as well.

Aww.. I love economics though I just think it's so intresting to see how one thing (like increasing the interest rate) can effect other areas (that's me tho)

**********
According to rastevefari ...

i love how speculation determines the price of oil. not supply and demand...

....... i hate economics.
**********

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

I was talking to a buddy of mine the other day about how the subprime market has crushed the economy and he informed me of something interesting.

Apparenly before all the lenders started handing out subprime loans that a group of civil rights actavists were working on a huge lawsuit to sue every lender out there. WHY? Well they felt that it wasnt fair to the people who didnt qualify for prime loans to get turned down for a loan. They felt it was a crime for the lenders to pick and choose who could borrow money and that it wasnt fair to the middle class and was a violation of human rights.

These civil rights idiots then basically were in the motion to sue each and every lender for BILLIONS of dollars if they did not come up with a way to get middle class non prime borrowers a way to get a loan. So the lenders then created the subprime program which in turn has caused all this mess.

I have not sat down to try and find the article about this. If someone knows about it or can find it please share I would be interested to know.

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

A HUUUUGE AMEN TO THAT.

**********
According to adamantium87 ...

we all deffinatly r feelin the effects of the economy rite now. i feel that if we all come together in a time like this and start organizing within the crews. having multiple parties on the same day within a certain area splits the scene and will effect the outcome of each. im not saying that this happens all the time, but it does happen.
if we start communicating on when we all are planning parties and keep other crews involved we can start seein larger turnouts and more profits to keep the scene goin strong. thats my 2 cents, any other thoughts or additions to what i have said.
**********

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

being broke is a state of mind

sure bad economics are negative so be more positive and hustle more
lol

yup, im broke too just like you

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

I think this idea is ridiculous - its a 'straw man' argument meant to take the focus off the real perpetrators of this mess: greedy lenders and cut throat investors with dollar signs in their eyes... (but i'll read the article if there is one).

The very workings of Capitalism itself is the ultimate problem...with all this 'speculative' investing and the drive to squeeze out more profit. Of course many of these people shouldn't have gotten these loans...but can you imagine the interests?! That's all these lenders and investors cared about!! - MONEy! - Short-term, short-sighted, without consideration or care about the consequences. That's alot of money for people who's only real God is the
bloodthirsty Profit.
So, its just not a problem with the Fed Bank Reserve - it's the whole set up - the whole system... Free-market economic system with profit in command always, Always - by its very nature, creates extreme poverty on one need with sickening wealth on the other...and the people in the middle be damned...

and it can not be "reformed"
The whole system needs to be 'radically' transformed - which is a whole other can of worms...

*****************
These civil rights idiots then basically were in the motion to sue each and every lender for BILLIONS of dollars if they did not come up with a way to get middle class non prime borrowers a way to get a loan. So the lenders then created the subprime program which in turn has caused all this mess.

I have not sat down to try and find the article about this. If someone knows about it or can find it please share I would be interested to know.

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

Joey, you make some great points. To offer some counterpoint - we don't have a legitimate free market economy. It's regulated to death (see administrative bodies for markets, emerging carbon cap and trade markets, etc.), and the Federal Reserve essentially controls all financial aspects of the regulation (at least here in the states) because we're beholden to them.

Not that there aren't other issues either. And I agree, capitalism as it has existed is pretty f**ked up - but then, true capitalism would require a free market economy - which, again, we don't have (and in fact have NEVER had). So I have a hard time labeling the concept as strictly wrong; on an idealistic basis, and assuming all rights (civil, property, etc.) were respected, the failings of what we currently call capitalism would be greatly minimized.

The underlying problem is globalization, which is a further realization of the fundamental concept of centrally controlled (to be read as ALL) banking: INEQUITY. Meaning, the global financial elite have made up a system of trade for which they have designed all processes (methods of valuation, transfer methods, systems of exchange, compound and other interest, etc.) that is worth - and backed by - absolutely nothing, which then becomes a means of trade for goods / assets / resources of ACTUAL value in other countries they've sold on this system of trade.

The core concept behind globalization is more or less Socialism - which means the State dictates and controls everything (see Patriot Acts I and II, influence of corporate lobbying on the political process, etc.). Of course, when you marry big business with socialism - this is more or less alluded to by late Naval General Smedley P. Butler's pamphlet "War Is a Racket", which describes how and why global business is the primary driver for war - you get Fascism, which is what we're seeing now. I would say the emerging world government system, including and greatly exhibited by the United States is rooted in fascism, not capitalism.

After all, it's inextricably intertwined with the linking of all economies - which requires central control. Lest we forget, the SEC (which is the basis of the Stock Market in this country) was part of the socialist movement initiated by FDR under the New Deal. It is cartelism, which is a more apt name; the primary means of facilitating the current exchange/control system.

The world is heading towards central control (One World Government); the EU is attempting to institute, for all intents and purposes, a dictator for the entire EU (flying under the banner of "President"). This has come into place under the auspices of globalization, which as observed in the case of the EU, destroys the sovereignty of member states to "improve trade conditions". Former Mexican president Vicente Fox has revealed his support for the North American Union, which would bring about the same changes here (you can find clips on Youtube quite easily).

I absolutely agree with you that the system is beyond reform; it is a globalist version of Rome. Let's call it what it is: the New World Order. The emerging global fascist state, an honest to God 1984. And the only way to get out of it is to stop cooperating - because once we do, those in power lose what power they have. It worked under Gandhi, and it can work again.

By the way, the SEC is responsible for applying a designation called "NRSRO" - nationally recognized securities ratings organization - which applies to credit ratings agencies such as Fitch's, Standard & Poor's, etc. These organizations basically give letter grades to securities that define them as worthy (or not) of investment. There are currently 7 NRSRO's operating in this country, if I'm not mistaken (I did a research project about them for work, and you can find them listed on the SEC website); they've been applying higher credit ratings to structured finance products they've helped to create. The subprime lending bulls**t fits the description of "structured finance product", and was ultimately ushered into valid existence through the machinations of NRSROs.

In the interests of staying relevant to the topic - I would love to see the entire scene protesting the gross injustice of the current monetary system...

[ 4_.phrantek._4 - 13 Aug 2008 13:28 ]
[ 4_.phrantek._4 - 13 Aug 2008 13:12 ]

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

Ya, rent is outrageous and job dont wanna pay you jack s**t!!!! Plus gas is outta control too. I went to buy zig zags last night, and those bad boys went up in price to!!! Even rollin papers get affected by these gas prices!!!

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

good info here phrantek. .
anyone who is not sure about all this should watch aaron russo's movie 'freedom to fascism'. (it's free to watch on google video or youtube.)

wanted to ask you a quick question. . if we ever were able to do away with the federal reserve, what do u see as a realistic way of regulating and actually backing our dollars again?

dnb kicks ass!!!!


[ dingleberry - 14 Aug 2008 16:01 ]
[ dingleberry - 14 Aug 2008 16:00 ]

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

i forgot to add. . .

for a real clear picture of just what is going on with our dollar, read the charts near the top of http://www.libertydollar.org/

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

haha lemme take financial advice from someone named dingleberry

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

lol. . or u could just focus on my username and completely ignore what i just posted. . .. . =Þ

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

In all honesty I think barter is best, because it's the only real system of exchange based on a legitimate transfer of assets. Failing that, a commodity-based currency, which is inherently resilient against inflation. Both of these could work in conjunction, of course. The biggest reason money became popular is to smooth out the difficulties of bartering (e.g. how many apples do you want for that horse?).

The story behind Lincoln and the greenback (remember reading about those in elementary school?) is that he was trying to get us away from the Fed as well. One of the primary reasons he was assassinated - really had very little to do with the Civil War.

**********
According to dingleberry ...

good info here phrantek. .
anyone who is not sure about all this should watch aaron russo's movie 'freedom to fascism'. (it's free to watch on google video or youtube.)

wanted to ask you a quick question. . if we ever were able to do away with the federal reserve, what do u see as a realistic way of regulating and actually backing our dollars again?

dnb kicks ass!!!!


**********

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

Hey phrantek,

I had this reallllly looong post to response your response to me...but i've cut it down to just a couple of points. We should sit down and talk about s**t - i like your thinking - although i don't agree with some points you make. But thats fine - more discussion and respectful debate needs to happen amongst all of us.

Anyway as to your point about the one world government:
Yeah well, yes…maybe but... I don’t really subscribe to this view that you expressed…(although I don’t know all the latest ins and out of it) Mainly because it ignores the reality of class society: That in spit of the fact that yes, there is ‘collusion’ amongst the ruling classes of various nations (even rivals) to screw us the people, over; there is still rival competing capitalist interests that are tied to nation-states or blocks. And they fight each other – in a married of ways, a lot of open and behind the scenes ‘diplomacy’ but also including armed conflicts and all out war.
War is, as the saying goes, just politics/diplomacy carried out under different conditions.

This short-lived war in Georgia – looks to be yet another Proxy-War between the interests of Russia and the US (ala Cold-War, except this time, things ain’t going to be so cold!).
The whole “one” government one bank thing is yes, a possibility…no doubt there are moves in this direction (Free-Trade, the EU, N. Amer. Union) this I don’t dispute.
But there is still tremendous in-fighting happening between all these bourgeois m’fers who hold the reigns of power.
Also some things in yours and other comments reflect this view of the so called “end of history” view that was put out by these “pro-western style capitalism” kind of economist/historians. - But this is another discussion.

There is just no such thing as some kind of ‘benevolent” capitalism. Like I said, and its really important to understand; capitalism by its very nature will create great social and economic inequality and injustice. Just look at the world today. It’s not by accident – or bad ‘policies’ – that the previously colonized nations even as they are now independent- can not seem to get out of debt, don’t seem to be able to develop their own proper functioning Infrastructure (all the things we take for granted) and continuously are in economic crises with horrible conditions for the majority of the its citizens. These conditions – the systematic distortions and crippling of progress and development of these nations - benefits capitalism (up to a certain point)- enriching the ‘coffers’ of bankers, investment firms and bribing into acquiescence some sections of the populace of the ‘developed’ nations (like our own).
The rate of return on foreign investments in the '3rd' world are significantly higher then domestic investment - hence the industrial jobs all going overseas...ie...higher profit.

But anyway, I think we mainly agree that a radical change in course is needed - We need like a New Age Of Reason (not the music program)....
peace.


[ joeyh0405 - 15 Aug 2008 17:24 ]
[ joeyh0405 - 15 Aug 2008 17:14 ]

Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

Might be a bit difficult to sit and talk - I moved to Alaska a few weeks ago. But I'm always game for a good chat / information-sharing session. Trade you AIM/iChat handles over jsm?

More or less agreed about capitalism, although I think a key player in the financial hardship of "3rd world nations" are bodies like the World Bank and sister organization IMF.

When it comes right down to it I see central banking as the key controlling factor (Committee of 300, primarily).

Totally stoked to talk.

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According to joeyh0405 ...

Hey phrantek,

I had this reallllly looong post to response your response to me...but i've cut it down to just a couple of points. We should sit down and talk about s**t - i like your thinking - although i don't agree with some points you make. But thats fine - more discussion and respectful debate needs to happen amongst all of us.

Anyway as to your point about the one world government:
Yeah well, yes…maybe but... I don’t really subscribe to this view that you expressed…(although I don’t know all the latest ins and out of it) Mainly because it ignores the reality of class society: That in spit of the fact that yes, there is ‘collusion’ amongst the ruling classes of various nations (even rivals) to screw us the people, over; there is still rival competing capitalist interests that are tied to nation-states or blocks. And they fight each other – in a married of ways, a lot of open and behind the scenes ‘diplomacy’ but also including armed conflicts and all out war.
War is, as the saying goes, just politics/diplomacy carried out under different conditions.

This short-lived war in Georgia – looks to be yet another Proxy-War between the interests of Russia and the US (ala Cold-War, except this time, things ain’t going to be so cold!).
The whole “one” government one bank thing is yes, a possibility…no doubt there are moves in this direction (Free-Trade, the EU, N. Amer. Union) this I don’t dispute.
But there is still tremendous in-fighting happening between all these bourgeois m’fers who hold the reigns of power.
Also some things in yours and other comments reflect this view of the so called “end of history” view that was put out by these “pro-western style capitalism” kind of economist/historians. - But this is another discussion.

There is just no such thing as some kind of ‘benevolent” capitalism. Like I said, and its really important to understand; capitalism by its very nature will create great social and economic inequality and injustice. Just look at the world today. It’s not by accident – or bad ‘policies’ – that the previously colonized nations even as they are now independent- can not seem to get out of debt, don’t seem to be able to develop their own proper functioning Infrastructure (all the things we take for granted) and continuously are in economic crises with horrible conditions for the majority of the its citizens. These conditions – the systematic distortions and crippling of progress and development of these nations - benefits capitalism (up to a certain point)- enriching the ‘coffers’ of bankers, investment firms and bribing into acquiescence some sections of the populace of the ‘developed’ nations (like our own).
The rate of return on foreign investments in the '3rd' world are significantly higher then domestic investment - hence the industrial jobs all going overseas...ie...higher profit.

But anyway, I think we mainly agree that a radical change in course is needed - We need like a New Age Of Reason (not the music program)....
peace.


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Re: Economic Turmoil and Our Scene?

Awesome to see all the feedback on this thread and its great to see people voicing their opinions without getting hated on for it.

Well I guess all we can do is keep our figers crossed and hope theres a light at the end of this tunnel.