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rebuttal to DEFARI's comments from allhiphop.com editor

A Call Out to Defari: An Editorial on Race and Criticism
By Paine

"I'm out here trying to get shows and a lot of these dudes are taking my money you understand? It's like a lot of these cats are taking my money. The Ugly Ducklings, Atmosphere, Aesop Rock, and all this s**t that I ain't even heard of. I guess it's a lot of these young kids that always be on the computer that are into these MC's and these groups that kinda represent and look like them. When I hear these niggaz music I be like 'damn that's horrible man.' This s**t is straight garbage," - Defari, Interview with ThaFormula.com.
Let me begin by stating that Defari is one of my favorite blossoming artists. I've purchased his independent albums, his twelve-inch singles, and even sport merchandise that supports his art. Last year, Defari and I even conducted an introspective interview together that covered topics few journalists care about, and dealt with issues privy to those who listen to the man's words.
How can it be then, that Defari's words on another website: ThaFormula.com, don't return that appreciation? Defari's attacks on the white role in Hip-Hop are both astonishing and hurtful to this writer. As a white man, Defari basically says, that my existence is good enough to buy his records but not share his stage. That catch-twenty-two not only caused me to write this, but also generates some thoughtful conversation.
Defari's diatribe mentioned three Hip-Hop acts: Ugly Duckling, Aesop Rock, and Atmosphere. All three of those artists are also making music that I support with my dollars. All three artists, like Defari, operate from an independent platform, and make very authentic Hip-Hop, as does the critic himself. Slug, another journalistic acquaintance, has been making public records for over a decade, around Defari's level of seniority. The same is close for Ugly Duckling, another group I've interviewed, and Aesop Rock. These artists, with Defari, are in the same boat, so to speak.
In Defari's argument, he has accused these acts of taking his money. I do believe that ALL Hip-Hop artists are, in a sense, taking each other's money. If I'm deciding between two records, one artist gets my money, the other doesn't. That's life, and motivation to make such a f**king good record that we, the audience, can't resist buying it. So to accuse three specific groups, doesn't make sense - especially when Ugly Duckling, a Long Beach trio, has in a since, "come up" in the same territory as Defari Herut. Coming up in Los Angeles, or any city, is the very essence of competition.
Next point: I think all three of these white acts pay homage to original Hip-Hop. The proof is in the pudding. Aesop Rock did work with a legend of the unsigned scene, Percee P. Ugly Duckling recently worked with veteran MC, Grand Puba. Atmosphere, who are decision makers on their Rhymesayers label, are putting out a M.F. DOOM LP this year by the KMD front-man. This isn't Anticon: a group that seems to never expand into any Hip-Hop artistry besides their own. These are artists that are clearly in love with classic Hip-Hop, and pay their respects often, with return artist support from high on the totem pole. After all Defari, to be bluntly honest: had it not been for King Tee and E-Swift's endorsement on your work, I may've never discovered you.
You also accuse the "Internet." Oddly, the interview was for a website. Also interesting: from your Billy The Kid LP to most recently, Odds and Evens album, aren't available in many stores. You, yourself are an "Internet" friendly artist. But granted, I don't "look" like you. That's pretty ignorant and simple thinking for a man with a diploma from Columbia University. Come to think of it....most of the Defari fans I know don't look like you. You want me to return your product? Our money is all the same color, right? Should I stick to "Rock"? That is an archaeic system of reasoning you have.
From the deepest depths of my soul, I do try to empathize. It frustrates me that Aesop and Atmosphere are the first Hip-Hop acts in a while to meet MTV2's standards of excellence. But truly, what can we expect a white corporation of Viacom to do to sell records to a majority white audience? That's not our problem, or the artists' fault. But their music is far from "garbage." These artists are making the charts, and not exploiting Hip-Hop in any way that my critical eye can decipher. After all, you were on Tommy Boy, a label twenty years rooted in supplying great artists. These cats are independent, as you are now. Is it not a level playing field? Why not accuse Eminem? Then again, you do work in the same circles though. Still, if the artists you mentioned are making such out-there, "garbage", how can a track like "Stan" be any different? But if we doubt the 45 King's production, we're really s**tting on Hip-Hop.
If we accuse the fans of these artists, let's expand our finger pointing. Have you been to a Del the Funkee Homosapien show or seen his demographic? That's a white show in many places. In the Public Enemy House of Blues DVD, you'll see a majority of white faces for a historically pro-black group, performing in the racially charged setting of Los Angeles. Chuck D, a personal hero, doesn't "look like me." But he too, is involved in the Internet, let's disregard him. I think you're missing the big picture here Defari.
As Pizzo, a Las Vegas Hip-Hop store owner that slangs your vinyl by way of the Internet made reference to, some of your producers are white. Evidence is the best example. The Dilated Peoples have a strong white following. What makes them any different from Atmosphere? Because they recorded in D&D? Because they're from LA? There is no great difference. In our interview you mentioned three white producers: Evidence, Joey Chavez, and The Alchemist. These cats are dope whether they're making records for you, themselves, or Mobb Deep. But I must like Alchemist because he looks more like me than you do. He can't be THAT talented, right?
I say things I don't mean often. We're human. I'm still a Defari supporter as long as you make quality records. But I guess it hurts to see a double standard being said from an MC I respect so highly. I do realize that it's difficult to see Hip-Hop's face changing. It is difficult to see white artists on BET before MTV picks up a black artist from the underground. Rock and Rap radio play Eminem, but Rock radio won't dare play M.O.P. These problems need to be directed at the powers that be before the artists. Defari, you need to evaluate who your audience is, and see that Hip-Hop comes in many sounds and styles. Personal taste is essential to our identity, but doesn't sit as well with argument. In the words of fellow West Coast'er and Asian descent MC (doesn't look like us), Lyrics Born..."Stop Complaining."

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Re: rebuttal to DEFARI's comments from allhiphop.com editor

Original Article/Interview:

THAFORMULA.COM - Now the last time we spoke you were in the process of dropping your "Odds & Evens" LP, that was almost 2 years ago. What that took so long for the album to drop?

Defari - I know I was in the process of finding the right home for it and the album just wasn't done yet.

THAFORMULA.COM - So what do you do in between time to get by man when you got such a long delay?

Defari - You know, I was doing a lot of shows. Two years ago I was touring with Xzibit and doing guest appearances, you know just hustling man. That's what I do.

THAFORMULA.COM - From the time we last spoke 'till now have you seen how much Hip-Hop has changed just in that short of time?

Defari - Yeah it's a lot more singers in the game nowadays but I said that s**t a long time ago. It's a trip how now people are talkin' about it. Rap became like sing-song type of s**t. I told people man. But I didn't foresee the corporate invasion of the whole game which shut down the independent industry. But that's where the game is at.

THAFORMULA.COM - How do you feel it affected the independent game?

Defari - Well it first started when they took away "The Box," which was a way for the general public to vote for their favorite videos. They took that away and then it also started with them taking away a lot of our radio outlets. The city of Los Angeles used to have way more radio shows where independent artists could thrive versus now, they only have one so it was the corporate invasion not only of the majors getting together and putting an all out assault on the internet but also the corporate invasion of the f**kin' radio stations. They all became corporate and that made it real bad for the independents, and for the young kids who came in the game after my sort of heyday in the mid 90's. For the kids who came after that in the late 90's it really sucked for them cause they didn't really have no outlets other than the internet, and then nowadays you got certain groups who thrive off of the internet who grew little cult followings and they don't even make no real rap music. It's not even real Hip-Hop. Like Atmosphere, you know the game got weird man! It's a lot of weirdo's to me nowadays. A cat like me is caught in the middle, however you know I'ma find my way through it. I'ma still find my way.

THAFORMULA.COM - Why do you think you fall in the middle?

Defari - Well the reason why "Odds & Evens" sort of fell in the middle is not so much because of the game, it's more so because of the machine behind the record. High Times Records is a piece of s**t label so you know?

THAFORMULA.COM - I thought with
the label and the magazine they would have given you major promotion?

Defari - Yeah man. What I lacked on this album was the television presence that I had on "Focused Daily." 'Cause nowadays if you're not on that box where people can see you, then people are not even gonna know you're out and that's the bottom line.

THAFORMULA.COM - It's amazing to me when I look back to when you as well as other Hip-Hop acts were once on majors. When you look at the s**t that is coming out on the majors nowadays and it seems like not much is being said or done about that...

Defari - I mean the bottom line is, its not that artists aren't saying nothing, it's that they are not being heard and that's just the bottom line. If you take "Odds & Evens," its an album which is worthy of any major distributor or major label. "Odds & Evens" to me is "Focused Daily" times 10, but I'm an opportunist and I jumped in the bed with High Times and you know here we are. For my next record you won't see it on High Times and you know the bottom line is if it wasn't for the people there wouldn't be no Defari so I'ma still keep doing what I'm doing for the people.

THAFORMULA.COM - A lot of people don't even know the album dropped man. Shit I didn't even know till a couple of weeks after…

Defari - Yeah that's my point, and unless they are walking to the stores and seein' it, they don't know it came out. They did the little street promo and s**t like that, but the bottom line is I had no television presence and the game nowadays man, uh, street snipes and stuff are burned out. That stuff is a throwback jersey just like the magazines. Magazines do not sell records anymore. The television sells records and that's the bottom line. If you got no television presence then the only people that are gonna know you are your true hardcore fans. I mean the record is sellin' and as a indie I have already recouped, so business wise I'm doing okay in terms of the formula, however the awareness for the record could be a lot more if I had just a television commercial or something like that.

THAFORMULA.COM - Man you could have done all this yourself if that's the case…

Defari - I did, like for example the video for "Spell My Name." People have seen it, it's just the masses haven't seen it. You know I did that myself. A television commercial for my album I put that together myself. Whether high times chooses to put the money up to get it to the TV is out of my control.

THAFORMULA.COM - That's strange man. I thought with the magazine they would have the money for that?

Defari - Nah, High Times is just a
name. The magazine doesn't even f**k with them and that's what I thought. When I was signing to them I thought we had the backing of the magazine. They just use the name man. So for any of you artists out there or perspective artists who are even thinking about signing to High Times, don't do it. If I would have had the backing of the magazine, s**t! I would have had five videos.

THAFORMULA.COM - What I think is funny is how you notice these little cult followings that are happening now?

Defari - Yeah because I'm out here trying to get shows and a lot of these dudes are taking my money you understand? It's like a lot of these cats are taking my money. The Ugly Ducklings, Atmosphere, Aesop Rock, and all this s**t that I ain't even heard of. I guess it's a lot of these young kids that always be on the computer that are into these MC's and these groups that kinda represent and look like them. When I hear these niggaz music I be like "damn that's horrible man." This s**t is straight garbage.

THAFORMULA.COM - Yeah, but that's the underground now man…

Defari - Yeah it's changed so you know it's just a bunch of weirdo's. It's a bunch of weirdo's running the scene and then there is a huge gap, there is a huge middle and right now that's where Defari is. That's where Phil Da Agony is, and that's where we're all at. But you know you gotta ride the storm and s**t, there will be a bright day.

THAFORMULA.COM - Did you ever think though Defari, that the major label scene would be in better shape then the underground scene 'cause the underground scene right now is just a total disaster?

Defari - (Laughs) Yeah I feel what you're saying. That's an interesting question.

THAFORMULA.COM - Well I mean I've never seen so many of the underground artists biting the mainstream artists by doing bounce tracks and wanna be club tracks, and love tracks that just ain't working. Usually it's the other way around. It just shows me how desperate artists are now to get put on...

Defari - Well yeah you either have that or you have the weirdo s**t. But uh you know the game has gotten to such a point where they're starving us out. But it's not gonna stop me cause my whole pedigree is built on…I came in this game with a full-time job and then I transferred over to full-time rap artist. So at worst I would just go back and get a gig and still keep doing the music. My whole thing is I done been through so much bulls**t in the business side of this music, I wanna get back to loving it and just doing it for the love of it.

THAFORMULA.COM - Did you expect the indie scene to turn into what it did?

Defari - Well you know its a trip because you know its always been around. It was around in '95 but it just that there was underground and then there was under, underground. And now it's just risen to being the underground, so its time was on its way. You know the fact that a certain type of music is at the forefront of the underground now, it was only a matter of time for that to happen. I think it's a grave mistake for any artist to dwell in a certain year or time period because the earth never stops spinning, so as new as the young kid's get, you as the artist got to be just as new if not newer than them. So that's how Defari is, I keep it moving. I still got to keep doing Defari 'cause I know there is thousands of people out there who always wanna hear me.

THAFORMULA.COM - I hear you man, but sometimes it's hard to accept a certain era has ended...

Defari - Yeah. You know what's crazy is promoters man. That's another thing we need to talk about. The promoters nowadays have all changed first off. Like a lot of the old promoters are not in the game no more and the new promoters are all scared of s**t because they really don't have good promoting skills. Take a Defari, how can I sell out the House Of Blues but yet I haven't even done a West Coast tour yet?

THAFORMULA.COM - So you have had a problem getting shows this time around?

Defari - Man, I've had the most problems getting shows than any year in my life. Because the promoters are coming back with such kibbles n' bits for a nigga that it's damn near disrespectful.

THAFORMULA.COM - It seems like they are just going with the weirdo market now like you said…

Defari - Yeah but its interesting the formulas they use cause I study. Its not that they're just getting these cats the gigs, take a Atmosphere who sold out the Fillmore like three nights in a row in San Francisco, but look they are selling it out at a seriously reduced ticket price. It's not like a Defari show where the promoters is always trying to get top ticket price for it. For these dudes they are cutting these huge deals. My point is they are not extending the same formula to an artist like myself. It's damn near discrimination (laughs). It's like I laugh about it because I think about it. I think about why they aren't extending the same formula.

THAFORMULA.COM - A lot has to do with these new promoters that don't even know Hip-Hop man...

Defari - Definitely that. Take it back to Bigga B, and "Unity (former Los Angeles Concert Venue)," the O.G., the foundation of all this s**t. Rest in Peace to Bigga B. I did Unity 5 times at least. My O.G.'s the Liks did it 3 times. Xzibit did it at least 2 or 3 times and it was a polish to the L.A. Underground, to the shows. It was something that the streets pumped 'cause that's where the underground comes from is the streets. Now underground comes from the internet and if you go to a Defari show it will be street up in there. It will be everybody and that's what I love about it. If you go to some of these other shows, it's far from street. So its just basically the promoters have come and gone and the game has changed, so with that like any good professional you gotta make the proper adjustments.

THAFORMULA.COM - So with this new album man, how was it making "Odds & Evens," and did you complete it a while ago?

Defari - Nah I got it done over time. Like a collection of maybe 2 years all together, but there was a bulk period where I was just hammering them out. Like a 6 month period. This was the first time that I actually CEO'd the whole production so my name is just not on there as Executive Producer. I literally did it and everything that I wanted to happen, god willed it and I paid all the people that worked on it literally out of my pocket and cats did me a favor. They all stepped up and really showed how much love they had for me, and look what you got? "Odds & Evens" is probably the best kept secret in the stores right now. The reason that it has sold as much as it has is because of word of mouth. I'm still working on getting the television presence. The album is far from over. It's only been out 3 months and we're gonna work it for the whole year. We're committed to working it. I got a new single coming out now called "Extra Thump." It's about to hit West Coast radio. Also the "Behold My Life" remix with Dilated Peoples is about to hit the underground and college radio so we gonna keep working it man. Then you got myself and DJ Babu, we got a new group called "Likwit Junkies."

THAFORMULA.COM - How did that come about man?

Defari - It was long overdue man. The fact hat we had worked on 3 songs together already from "Joyride," to both "Behold My Life's" I just thought that Babu's production talents really could got to just a whole other level and really just be exposed on a whole new higher level. I came to him with the proposal and he was interested in doing a group, and now we got a crazy album man. I mean the album is crazy.

THAFORMULA.COM - That's a good move and that should open up a new audience for both of you...

Defari - Definitely because the sound that we have is uh, one, its not out there and two its never been heard before which excites me cause that's hard to do in today's era of rap where so much has already been heard.

THAFORMULA.COM - How are you guys planning on putting this album out?

Defari - Were gonna put it out through ABB, and I just really wanted to bring back to Beni B and the trademark of the label which is good west coast Hip-Hop. 'Cause you know I launched the label with him as the inaugural artist with "Bionic" and I was the one who basically brought his way Dilated and everybody he's ever f**ked with really except for some of the newer artists like Little Brother and stuff like that. He went and found that himself.

THAFORMULA.COM - I asked this question to you 2 years ago and I'ma ask again. Will there ever be a Likwit Crew LP?

Defari - Yeah, well right now were working on the Liks album. To be honest with you…will there ever be a Likwit album? I don't know. I'm all for it. But you're dealing with a lot of grown men and sometimes its just hard to unify them and sometimes its not.

THAFORMULA.COM - So is everything cool now between you and X, and basically the whole Likwit crew?

Defari - Yeah, that s**t is over man. All that s**t is as relic as a lot for these weirdo cats rhymes. X is working on a new album, the Liks, uh I got some hot spittery on their album. Tash is working on "Rap Life II." I'm on Dilated' new album "Neighborhood Watch." So I'm still doing my thizzle man. I'm in the streets with the "Strong Arm Steady s**t with Phil and Krondon and all that.

THAFORMULA.COM - What's up Tela (King T) man, what's he doing?

Defari - I should be asking you that 'cause your guess is as good as mine.

THAFORMULA.COM - So much talent man. I just don't understand...

Defari - Hey man, its just like all the brothas who played basketball in the city, so much talent…It ain't no different man. All you can do is tap the bottle and twist the cap and pour out a little for the dead ones. That's all you can do man. Some of us are gonna keep doing it and some of us ain't.

THAFORMULA.COM - What do you see as the next step in Hip-Hop man. I mean with all these corporate mergers happening what do you see happening to the music ?

Defari - Ultimately the streets will prevail. So some sort of new gorilla warfare tactic created by the streets where the music is not in sole control of the corporations is going to prevail once again. When this will happen I don't know, how it will happen I don't know, but I'm a be a part of that s**t though! (Laughs)

THAFORMULA.COM - And if it doesn't happen?

Defari - Oh it will happen man, you know why? Because there is 360 degrees of everything so it will happen.

THAFORMULA.COM - Do you think we have seen the worst or is the worst yet to come?

Defari - Its funny 'cause in America where there is a will to make something worse, it can happen, so I don't think we have seen the worst of it no. When you start getting these corporations taking over radio and television, you know if one entity is controlling it it's literally like the government. It's like they are controlling the images, the sound bytes that your getting and then what they're doing is just straight making people robots. Even the internet went corporate man and this is supposed to be controlled by the people. You know they called us the "X Generation" but that was such a misnomer because the X Generation" really is now. The generation with no soul, with no cultural values, like a video game generation.

Re: rebuttal to DEFARI's comments from allhiphop.com editor

thanks for this one chris.

that whole defari situation really upset me. i admired him a lot before that.. here's a columbia educated cat who's teaching high school in the LA public school system and still scorches mics - but then he came out like that?

i'm hoping that he was just frustrated with his own limited success in terms of sales and vented his anger incorrectly. i really hope that he apologizes and gives credit where it's due.

this upset me almost as much as DJ Quik's recent comments .. i wish i could find a transcript of the interviews HE's done lately.

Re: rebuttal to DEFARI's comments from allhiphop.com editor

man aesop would serve defari, he's trippin. he's bugging out on the fact people arent flocking to him, do i hear a soar loser haha

Re: rebuttal to DEFARI's comments from allhiphop.com editor

poor little I think I'll cry Defari.
Just cuz he can't compare with all the ill M.C.s of these days hez gotta hate and not give due praise.
so lame.
He already had his brief flicker of time in the light... ..step aside and let the real pros take over.

Re: rebuttal to DEFARI's comments from allhiphop.com editor

"man aesop would serve defari, he's trippin.", hmmm i don't think he would, but thatz besides the point, i think the business side of things just really got to Defari, but he should just understand that the only constant in life is change so . . . .

Re: rebuttal to DEFARI's comments from allhiphop.com editor

ya i was disappointed by that too. alot of it does just seem like s**t talking from an artist not getting booked as much. but there's alot of truth in it too. esp. the cult like followings from internet promo and promoters that dont really know hip hop. also "underground used to be from the streets and now its from the internet" - i agree

Re: rebuttal to DEFARI's comments from allhiphop.com editor

^^^werd to that, yeah my friend who is from NY and is a lawyer here at my job and grew up in the height of hip hop (1986,87,8 in NY said that people used to have to pay some sort of dues in hip hop that made it unique moreso then any other music, but now itz like if u can write tight rhymes on an internet site then people will be like 'what a great mc' (not takng into account all the other stuff that goes into making an MC like stage presence etc.). Itz funni though how if u criticise like a Atmosphere people will charge u with hatin', but it is okay to hate on say a Puff Daddy . . . itz all relative, i just say like what u like, create what u want, please urself first and those who feel u will follow.

Re: rebuttal to DEFARI's comments from allhiphop.com editor

some graff artists come up alot faster through magazines and internet sites too, but that doesnt mean there wack, its just another tool of "getting up". same goes for rhymes, and yes aesop rock would mash up defari in a battle no comparison.... but its just my opinion

Re: rebuttal to DEFARI's comments from allhiphop.com editor

honestly i think Defari and Aesop Rock would both get served by mc repete.

Re: rebuttal to DEFARI's comments from allhiphop.com editor

defari vs. young mc ,now that would be where its at....

Re: rebuttal to DEFARI's comments from allhiphop.com editor

^^^awww man don't bring Young MC into it, ha ha ha. I saw his video BUST A MOVE yesterday and i forgot he had like a black manz shagg going on. He was a math major at USC.

Re: rebuttal to DEFARI's comments from allhiphop.com editor

he still can flow better than most mc's.. including anyone who talked s**t on him.

Re: rebuttal to DEFARI's comments from allhiphop.com editor

yeah, thats pretty ill that such an educated man like defari would publicly convey his feeling that white kids can buy his records (put money in his pocket) but not share the same stage as him. thats just lame.

oh yeah, and will heads PLEASE stop calling aesop rock, aesop? aesop/asop is an MC from the LL crew, NOT aesop rock. sorry, but i'm kind of anal about s**t like that especially when i celebrate the latter's talent much more.

Re: rebuttal to DEFARI's comments from allhiphop.com editor

uummmm... yeeah oookkk

Re: rebuttal to DEFARI's comments from allhiphop.com editor

I like it.....much of what he is spillin is the truth.........

juss wish the remarks werent directed to some of my favorite artists.........